I remember when the guy from Brownsville came from Bethel. There were two things that I remember from his whole time. 1. He told a story of some guy’s finger growing back in front of his very eyes. That was so freaky when I was that young that it never left my head. 2. He said “God catches his fish first and then he cleans them.” That line has not left me since. I think it was so cool because at the time, and still today the churches and Christians seem to be so concerned about cleaning everyone up before they hang out with them.
I don’t know why we think it’s our job to point out the wrong in everyone and tell them to stop doing things that we don’t agree with like drinking, drugs, sleeping around, being gay, gambling and so on. (One big reason why I don’t think it’s that big of a deal to try and stop gays from getting married.) Our commandment is to love, not correct. God corrects.
I realize Jesus used it but I think he used it differently than we think he did. The way that’s easy to interpret the analogy is that it seems as if we are ‘catching’ and ‘fighting’ people to be saved. It’s as if we spiritually bait the hook and reel people into the Kingdom. For some reason I don’t think Christ went out there and used his miracles and love as bait, but he used it because he genuinely cared and was compassionate for them not for the sake of salvation but for the sake of love and compassion.
Sure we are fishers of men, ok. I don’t think that means baiting hooks and reeling in people spiritually at all. If anything we are like a fish farm where we give people a safe environment to spiritually grow and feel loved. Maybe that’s even bad, I’m not sure. There is just something about.
Tom,
Just because I read your blog doesnt mean I can encapsulate you as such and such, youre quite correct in that comment.
I have seen your comments a lot on here and there always so objective. No one minds a devils advocate (and I truly believe its needed) but come on, pal lets get back to basics.
Lets not obtain and know Gods knowledge for lengthy debates, but rather to take it, believe it and apply it. Lets get out there and make disciples which we are commanded to do. I just find it hard to make disciples when were so concerned with telling them how much SIN they have. There has got to be a better way.
I Also hope I am more Winsome when dealing with people since the definition of winsome means that one is charming, often in a childlike or naive way. I hope you arent implying that those are my characteristics and that you are encapsulating me because of one debate we have had?
Hahaha Holy Crap, Ron and Tom using his comment space to argue? It’s funny but ever heard of Email?
Ron,
I wish I could say that I don’t encapsulate people but sometimes I do. Although it’s hard I try not to figure you out through the few paragraphs we’ve shared.
I think that sin is important in presenting the Gospel. Does this mean that I dwell on it for a second longer than I think is nessesary? No. I’m sure most people are somewhat dissaitfied and don’t really need to be probed like that.
What do you mean objective? Do you mean that I object to what’s being said a lot? Perhaps more than most. Could you mean that I try to be as fact-oriented as possible? I admit I’m like that more often than sometimes.
My use of the word winsome was unrelated to what I may or may have not thought about you.
Tom
Ron,
For someone who claims not to be pegging me, you seem to have me pretty figured out.
I wasn’t trying to be arguementitive nor was I trying to get anyone into a scripture shoot out. However it does stand to reason that the Gospel is defined scripturally. Nor was I trying to say that Romans 3:23 is a sufficent gospel presentation. But it the Gospel, and sin is in it.
To close I would like to mention the fact that I’m somewhat weary of people pegging me into some kind of rubric because I use big words and I’m a Calvinist. As if the fac that I hold certian doctrines means that I can’t be encouraged by SOME features of the Emergent moverment or the fact that I’, fairly conservative means that I’m (and my tribe) are some kind of outsider or an obstacle. I hope, Ron, that when you’re presenting the Gospel to others you’re a little more winsome than here.
Tom,
I think its all well and dandy to know our scripture and I am sure we can sit here all day and see who has memorized the most. I almost look at memorizing scripture and hitting people over the head with it as a bit of a selfish thing. Telling people (who dont know about it) that they are IN SIN because of what scripture (which they have never read) tells them that they are lesser than the one preaching it to them.
To tell someone that they are dead and need life isnt the most loving of things to say. I dont think it would be very effective for me to tell someone who is ignorant to the gospel that: Romans 3:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus.”
I am sure your debates are cute with your Christian friends and you are acclaimed around your fellow believers but something tells me that there isnt too much going on out side of your bubble.
I was reading your blogs and you claim to be a Calvinist. Now Im not trying to categorize you all but the ones I have met are very set on tradition, rules, discipline, and for the most part, are not to evangelistic. I read on further to hear you like the idea of the immerging church. These two things I find to be very antithetical (for those who are simple like me, antithetical means opposite, but Tom likes to throw big words around in his writings so I thought I would too)
I wrote all this and then read Andrew Fulfords comment. And you are correct friend. Different styles work for different flavors of people. But unfortunately, from personal experience, only a person who grew up in a church and had church hammered into them could benefit from such lines as Romans 3:23.
I hate arguing with Christian people because it gets no where. We both believe in the same creator, just others read into things and take things more personally than others.
Tom, if you think telling people that they are in SIN works, then be my guest. You never know who will respond to it. As for my witnessing to people and telling them the good news of God having more for there life, then so be it.
nathan, i hope you don’t mind but i linked your blog from mine. just want to get more people reading this good stuff. keep it up…
Ian
You know, having witnessed and taken part in this discussion many times, I’m not sure exactly what the usefulness of talking about witnessing “in general” is. I think you have to take it on a case by case basis. We know the things we are commanded to do, and we know the people we have to reach. It requires wisdom to see how they fit together.
Ron,
I think that you’re assuming that to tell someone about her sin is antithetical to telling someone about God’s love for her. We’re all aware of Romans 3:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus.” In order to understand the gift and why it’s so very precious you have to understand that you’re dead and need life. This is the Gospel. That’s why Paul talks this way throughout Romans. Infact Paul
‘s arguement throughout the entire book has been classically understood in Protestantism is as follows: Our Sin & Misery, Our Deliverance, and Our Thankfulness. To start in the middle of the story I don’t think is too helpful.
Moreover if you are in fact witnessing to people and telling them that “God has more” the question is, is that the Gospel? Are you compelling people for their need for Jesus and redemption or are you telling people merely that they can improve their lives?
I think if it was our job to tell people about there ‘SIN’ then I think thats just another reason to be more apathetic to do ‘ministry work’ (we dont need anymore of that crap)
Call me a simpleton, but I dont feel lead to get into debates about what ‘so and so’ is doing wrong and how he needs to repent and love Jesus. I think showing Christs love with how you act and treat people is power enough to bring a ‘non-believer’ to question this whole ‘Christian thing,’ then when they are willing and seeking – BAM – then you can get into some money conversations.
Then its not a matter of “your sinning here” but a matter of ‘God has more for your life.”
Peace
I think I understand what you’re getting at and I think I agree, to a point (as usual). Yes, Christ did hang out with the “undesirables” in society. He came to seek those who are in need of a doctor, not those who are well. But we must never pretend that the sin of siful people dosn’t keep them from a Holy God. They must repent therefore of these sins. While we must never be caustic, it’s hardly loving to not mention their sin to them and tell them that because of this sin they must find love and acceptance in Christ.