There was a letter in the Sarnia Observer the other day, my friend Troy had it on his blog. The following is the letter and a reply that I wrote for it.
Dear Editor,
People calling themselves Christians are only too eager to point out how the issue of same sex marriage is contrary to the Bible yet at the same time most of the average Christians in Canada live lives that are contrary to the Bible. Here are a few examples of what the Bible says:
“The seventh day is scared…anyone who does work on that day is to be put to death,” (Exodus 35:02). Here it is in the Bible clearly not to work on Sunday but you will never hear any Christian speak of this part of the Bible and are only yo eager to work overtime.
“Anyone who curse his father or mother shall be put to death,” (Leviticus 20:09). Today Christians are afraid of even raising their voices to their children so discipline is not an option.
“The wearing of golden jewelry, or rich robes is not for you,” (Peter 3:03)
“Women must deport themselves properly, should dress modestly…not in fancy hair styles, gold ornaments, pearls, or costly clothing,” (Timothy 2:02). Tell me how many of today’s Christians follow these orders. I think they would rather follow Tommy Hilfiger or Tifanies more closely.
“If you want to be perfect, go and sell all that you have and give the money to the poor…then come follow me,” (Mathew 19:21). There are many Christians that do not follow this edict from Jesus and they are more interested in their mutual funds or next pay raise.
“I say to you it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.” Or, “Do not store up riches for yourself here on earth…for your heart will always be where your riches are,” (Mathew 6:19). These are clear cut directions given to all the people that call themselves Christians, and yet where are their hearts today?
It is clear that there is no end in the contradictions of today’s Christians and that they are not even Christians at all. They are hypocrites lined up for miles to say how the same sex marriage is contrary to the Bible and that this is the beginning of some great moral decay od society, yet they do not follow the teaching of Jesus.
As he himself said Mathew 23:23, “You hypocrites you give to God a tenth … but you neglect to obey the really important teachings of the law, such as justice and mercy and honesty.”
John Richards,
Sarnia
My reply
Ok, now this is a topic that is turning a lot of heads. It’s exciting though because every generation has their own issues to work out and ours seem to be homosexuality, abortion, cloning and other interesting ones like that. Think about ones throughout history like slavery, indulgences and how the catholic churches were running.
I would like to point out first that the writer of this letter uses a lot of fallacies in his argument if he is trying to argue that homosexuality is good. For instance, just because he can point to Christians that are living contrary to the bible, it does not follow that they are wrong. You can’t use anything else that a Christian says to produce an argument to show that one thing they are saying is wrong. You can do that to show that they are hypocritical but not that what they are saying is wrong. He also makes a statement that because there are contradictions in Christians they aren’t Christians at all, well that isn’t true either. If being a Christian means following a set of rules, especially ones that were in the moral code of Israel or pulled out of context to make a point then I don’t want to be a Christian and of course they are living contradictions.
Being a Christian means following Christ, not following rules. I will admit, and be the first one to do so that no Christian follows Christ all the time, and I personally think that the church is handling the homosexual issue completely wrong but I don’t want to be judged on how well I follow laws, if I’m going to be judged at all judge me on how well I’m loving the homosexual.
I think the point he is making is a good one, he just has a poor way of doing so. I love the last verse he quoted from in Matt 23:23. It seems like all he’s trying to say that Christians are hypocrites, not that homosexuality is wrong. Is he off? I don’t think so at all. The church is a bunch of hypocrites; thanks God were into the kingdom by Christ’s righteousness and not our own. We are hypocrites and heretics saved by grace.
On another issue is the way homosexuality is being handled in the church. I don’t really understand why we think it’s our duty to stand up against homosexuality. Why are we trying to make unbelievers live by our standards of living, or God’s standards of living. They don’t believe you, or in God or in the bible so what are we trying to prove. Show me one passage in the bible where anyone told unbelievers how to behave. It seems to me that they focused on showing them love and Christ, not how to stay straight and not swear. Why do we take it upon ourselves to cleanse society of sin?
It isn’t our job. Our job is to love our neighbor, but we spend so much time hating the sin that we forget that it’s our neighbor sinning and they end up feeling our hate and then letters like the above get written. I was asked once my thoughts on homosexual marriage and I just said that I think we should let them get married. The pastor that asked me dropped his jaw and couldn’t believe I was saying that. Do we really have authority to try and stop someone from sinning? Is that our job? Should pastors have to marry them? Well no, that’s against free will also, but what will it benefit anyone if we stop homosexuals from getting married. Will we feel safer because we live in a less sinful society?
It seems as if the church is trying to control their surroundings by getting involved in the world’s lives (with the excuse telling them that we care and since we really love them we want to see sin eradicated from their lives) and telling them what is wrong and what is the right way to live. I’ll bet that if we stop freaking out about our neighbor’s sin and start loving our neighbor we’d actually start to see the kingdom move forward around us. Stopping gay marriages won’t do one thing for anyone except make them mad. I’ve actually read articles in the Christian Herald that said that if gay marriages go forward then next were going to be denying Christ, as if Steve and John getting married really have ANY effect on my walk with Christ and my love for anyone.
So I say, let them get married; stop acting like it’s your job to make sure the unbeliever lives as righteous as you. I’m not saying its right; I believe that God created a man and woman to be together, no exceptions. I don’t think that not taking care of your body is right either, yet most pastors and church staff are overweight. The very pastors that are telling us to go letter happy telling the parliament how we feel. How would they feel if we started passing petitions around saying that we don’t want to listen to them until they start losing weight and taking care of their bodies better. We won’t do that; why not? Will having homosexual’s around (which they are already around) make you feel uncomfortable? Most definitely! It will challenge you to be on your toes and start living deliberately and full of love. It will take the control out of your hand and into God’s. Love them and allow God to change your hearts so that they don’t even want to get married and they want to be transformed by God. Changing actions doesn’t do anything; changing hearts is what counts.
I know I haven’t read all your blogs, but from what I have read, I think this one is my favorite. It seems as soon as an issue like this comes up, “love thy neighbour as thyself” and “do not judge else you be judged” goes COMPLETELY out the window. Do Christians have to agree with Gay marriage? No. Will not allowing same sex marriages make homosexuals STOP BEING homosexuals? No. What then is the point? All the issue does is creates a further divison between Christians and non-christians, and it implies Christians reject people instead of loving them. 10 out of 10 Natalie’s agree that this blog was awesome.
so is sarnia your passion?
I’m not anywhere near being a bible scholar, or anywhere near to being as educated as most of you guys, so I’m not attemping to sound smart or anything, just sharing what I learned at a missions trip in California i got back from a week ago.
One night, our outreach was to go to Boy Town, it was all gay guys, the big clubs and everything you’d normally see down a busy street in Cali, but it was filled with gays.
Before that, I honestly had no experience with gays, I’ve never had a gay friend, just a couple guys you’d hear rumours about in high-school that were gay, and you’d crack jokes about it.
So here I was, walking down this big street and starting random conversations with gay guys.
I know a lot of you guys have a bunch of verses memorized, and different experiences, but what I learned that night was beyond any theory or opinion, it was the simple fact that, they’re people. I can refer to them as ‘the gays’ or ‘homosexuals’ or whatever, but the bottom line is that they are people, who are homosexuals.
I was just having a conversation with Nathan about how hard it would be to be gay. For some of us we struggle with alcohol, or drugs, or having sex with someone before we’re married, then when there’s someone like that who receives Christ, they have to give up getting drunk, or high, or having sex until they’re married, but as far as relationship. they still have that hope. I can date a girl, get married, and have a family some day. These gays we’re trying to ‘save’, I don’t think we understand what it’s like to be in their shoes, we’re saying ‘stop sleeping with that guy/girl, it’s wrong, you have to live for God and stop practicing homosexuality. Which means, they can never have a real relationship, or a real family of their own. All we see is ‘stop having sex with guys/girls, stop “being gay”‘. When really, that is something that would be incredibly hard to do for them.
We should stop trying to figure out the best method to save them, or how to approach them. Approach them the same way you’d approach your brother. Just talk to them, I didn’t preach at any gays when i was in boy town, i talked to them, eventually they asked if i was gay, and when i said no they asked ‘then what are you doing here’ then i was able to talk about Christ with them, however, that shouldn’t always be our goal, to preach and get them saved. We should simply love them, the two greatest commands, Love God, and Love Others. There’s God, then there’s others. Others obviously meaning EVERYONE else, gays, straights, alcoholics, rapists, murderers. some are harder than others, but they’re all included. And God loves them just as much as he loves you, so never assume you’re on a higher level than them because you think you’ve got it all together cuz you’re attracted to the opposite sex.
Nice comments. I respect all of your views and your knowledge. You all have definitely more experience then me in this field period.
Nate you said, “but certainly feelings or actions can’t keep you from heaven, only a life without Christ can.” That is where we are very different. I believe actions can and will keep us out of heaven. I also believe that actions and/or feelings can separate us from God.
Just one quick question. Is someone a homosexual if they just have homosexual feelings and not act upon them? Humm?
I can see you side of things Ryan as well as yours Nate. I think we all have one thing in common. Love the gay. Pray for the gay. Embrace the gay. I believe if we do this, we can’t go wrong.
If I offended anyone with my comment, I am sorry. Truly that was not my intention. I probably shouldnt of used the child pornography example but instead of used abortion. I admit I need to read my comments more closely before I post. As you all know words on paper can sometimes mean something totally different then if it was said in person. I am also fairly new at this blog stuff so bare with me.
Troy
Troy: Like you, I’m not a biblical scholar, I did attend Tyndale where I majored in psychology, but I now attend YorkU where I major in Psychology and minor in gender and sexuality studies. In response to your post: likening homosexuality to child pornography is not only ignorant but also incredibly offensive to gay people. There is a world of difference between the two: one involves the violation and exploitation children while the other is only a variant of sexuality. When you said “The bottom line is if they (the gays) live this life they will reap eternal damnation I think you’re not leaving any room for grace, where is the ‘you have to be straight to obtain salvation’ clause in ‘whoever believes in Him will not die but have eternal life’? There isn’t one. Sexual orientation simply isn’t a factor in whether or not you have salvation. That said, there’s a difference between sexual orientation and behaviour. You have relatively little choice in whether you’re gay or straight; do you ever remember making a decision to be straight? It isn’t that simple. What you do have choice in is whether or not you act out upon your sexual desires as heterosexuals or homosexuals. Is it a sin to have a homosexual orientation? How can it be when the person has no say in the matter? And here is where I believe that the Church has seriously dropped the ball. It’s not ‘safe’ to be a gay Christian, even if you are not acting out on your desires. Rather than supporting our brothers who, like us, are broken image bearers of God, we demand a change in orientation for them to prove their salvation. Your friend is very fortunate, but his change in orientation is definitely atypical. There are a lot of organizations that aim to do what’s called reparative therapy or conversion therapy – the main goal of both is to change sexual orientation. This kind of therapy is not at all supported or endorsed by the American Psychological Association or the American Psychiatric Association (two of the largest mental health organizations in the world) on the grounds that they view the potential negative out-comes (the two most common negative outcomes are depression and suicidality) far worse than the potential benefits. Sadly these kinds of therapy, all of which are associated with religious groups, make promises that they can’t uphold. If we view sexuality as plastic (changeable) we have to be willing to concede that it’s a two way street. Can you honestly see yourself ‘going gay’, for the rest of your life? Probably not. There has been a lot of debate about the successful outcomes of conversion therapy; empirical studies (I can give you a list of articles if you want) show that only a very small percentage (the highest reported figure is 13%) have positive outcomes. The definition of “successful outcome” varies, but several studies have ranged the self-reported outcomes of a complete re-orientation (with no desire for same-sex sexual interaction) at or below 1.5%. The five-year follow up results are much less encouraging. What does this mean? I think it should challenge us to have a paradigm shift in thinking – a move from ‘they can be fixed’ to ‘they are broken people in need of support’. Do I think change possible through God? Yes. Does He do it often, the data would suggest not.
In terms of how do we tell them they are sinning? I’d suggest that instead of Christians going around accusing others of sinning and telling them that they are abominations to God, we take a good hard look at ourselves. Before we came to Christ were we any less retched in the eyes of God? Maybe what needs to take place is a new way of life shown to them by gay Christians. There is life and fulfillment in Christ for all, but the problem lies in being comfortable with gay Christians coming out of the closest and allowing them beside you on the pew so that they can have the opportunity to show what life can be like as a sinner and a saint to those who are not yet saved.
Hmm…
I find this all quite interesting that a lot of us have all come to a variety of stances on this issue. Frankly, that doesn’t bother me too much as long as where you stand doesn’t effect you sincerely loving everyone, including a homosexual, the way Christ loved us and the way you love your mom.
I like what Tom said in that the law brings light to Christ. And it’s very true. The law was there to point Israel to Christ. Howevever, I don’t know if it plays that purpose anymore? Maybe it does. Maybe it makes people know that they are inadequate and shows them their need for Christ.
Where I think the division is being made between those who have left comments is some beleive that we should confront the unbeleiver with their sin and others beleive that we should not. I like to try to narrow it down to where the disagreement is so that we can come to a conclusion (if we come to a unanimous agreement).
So should we confront unbeleievers with their sin? I honestly don’t know, and now that I’ve asked my question that specificaly I can’t say i have an answer with it. I’ve confronted friends before and there was positive results and I’ve confronted and their was only negative results (that i saw). Maybe we should confront their need for Christ, and not specific sins. I think that would be a pretty good option as opposed to saying that ‘your a liar, therefore you are going to hell’ what if we just said ‘you can’t live the life that you want to live, you can’t live the life that God demands, therefore you need Christ.’
I like Jonathan’s comment on that it is irresponsible to let the world go around. I agree completely. It is the churches Job under the power of the Holy Spirit to advance the Kingdom and to bring the love and knowledge of Christ to everyone.
Troy, that’s an awesome story that you loved your friend and that he is now saved. I respect you greatly for that. It must make this a very dear subject for you, i pray that God will lead and direct you to act correctly and godly in how you will handle future situations.
Troy, you said, “Do I think we should allow them to marry? A big fat NO” This is where i just don’t understand that much. As Christians, i beleive that if anything we give up our rights to control other people, to allow people to live one way or another. Should we even want the power to make people live one way or another? Certainly even with free will (if you beleive in such a thing) guarentees that even God himself ‘allows the homosexual to marry.’ So can we as Christians really try and take the place where we try and stop them?
Our job as Christians is not to stop homosexuals for marrying, or to stop child porographers from running our neighborhoods, or to stop teens from having pre-maritial sex, or to stop the alocoholics from heading to the bars. Our job is to be Christ to them, Christ does the changing, not our logic or clever words or taking over politics. Changing actions accomplishes NOTHING for the kingdom of God, only changed hearts accomplishes something.
Also, you said “The bottom line is if they (the gays) live this life they will reap eternal damnation.” Just a word of carefulness that you make sure that you understand this completely. Just because your gay doesn’t mean your damned. Life without Christ means that you will not inherit eternal life. Christ will work out the issue if you have homosexual feelings or not, but certainly feelings or actions can’t keep you from heaven, only a life without Christ can.
To all the people that left comments, thanks so much, I hope that they helped everyone, because i know they did me, in understanding more fully the kind of love and actions that should be treated to those on teh same ground as us.
OK here goes. I am far from a Bible Scholar or a Tyndale attender, but here are my thoughts anyway. This is definitely a touchy subject that needs pounds of prayer.
I am sure everyone can appreciate what the churches motive is, although sometimes their approach may be wrong. The bottom line is if they (the gays) live this life they will reap eternal damnation. Sounds blunt but it is truth. The Bible clearly says that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of God. The church is not trying to condemn the gay, rather save their life. The big question is how do we do it? We all have our own opinions and we obviously think that our own is right. Do we love them? Do you tell them that it is wrong? Do we preach at them? What do we do?
I too have a gay friend who I much love and admire. We were best friends in high school and he told people that he liked me and had sexual feelings for me. The teasing was endless but through it all, we stayed friends. I told him about Christ and salvation. He is now a Christian and no longer a gay. What changed him? Of course God but what exactly “changed” him? At what point did he decide not to be gay? My approach when dealing with his homosexuality was simple. I simply didn’t bring it up. I prayed. The holy sprit then dealt with it through his attendance at church and my respect to him. He knew that I didn’t agree with his lifestyle, I didn’t need to tell him. He is now a sold out Christian and loves God. Will my method work with every gay? I dont know.
Do I think we should allow them to marry? A big fat NO. If we do then why not allow polygamy? Child pornography? “Hold on a sec Troy, that’s just wrong.” Exactly. Morally and Biblically wrong. Wrong is wrong. I don’t want my son to grow up in a pre school that teaches, “Once upon a time there lived Steve and Jeff….” You can see where I am going.
I personally need to spend more time with my face down then with my index finger extended.
Troy Burton
i dont know if anyone mentioned this already…if it has been mentioned forgive me! but when Jesus was face to face with Mary after the religious leaders dragged her out when they caught her in adultary, did Jesus love her? yes…did he confront her about her sin? most definately. he flat out said, “i dont condemn you for what you’ve done…but stop sinning!” (my paraphrase)…so to just sit back and let the world go round is kinda irresponsible on our (the churches) part. we are to defend the Truth of Christ, which obviously includes the word of God. so should we not stand up and “protest” when God’s word is being stomped upon? i believe we are called to do this…however, in the context of love of course, for love covers over a multitude of sins….i dunno…just a thought!
I think that it’s important not to have a reductionist point of view on this. While I don’t want to get into the issues associated with orientation and behaviour I think that part of better understanding the matter is coming to terms with the fact that through relationship gay people are fulfilling a biological drive and a deep-rooted psychological need for intimacy, companionship, and (human) love. For these reasons it’s important to be compassionate, far more so than we as a Church and individuals have been in the past.
That said, the gay marriage issue in Canada is clearly a matter of civil rights and not a religious issue. In the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it is clearly stated under section 15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability. But where’s sexual orientation? Well in Egan v. Canada, [1995] 2 S.C.R. 513 the Supreme Court of Canada the held that although “sexual orientation” is not listed as a ground for discrimination in section 15(1), it constitutes an analogous ground on which claims of discrimination may be based. What gay Canadians are requesting is the “equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination” which would include such things as oneness under the law (the inability to be forced to testify against your spouse) and the monetary benefits associated with income taxes, shared pension benefits, as well as benefits associated with marriage in private industry (eg. shared health insurance).
I understand why Christians feel threatened by this: two women or two men is not the biblical definition of marriage. However, the section of the charter which guarantees equal rights (and yes, marriage is a right when there are major legal implications) to people regardless of their sexual orientation is in the same section guaranteeing that you will not be discriminated against based on your faith. I’m personally proud to live in a country that takes the equality of it’s citizens very seriously, but that doesn’t discredit the teaching of scripture. The moral implications of the biblical teaching should be for the believer and not for those who are not yet in relationship with God. There ARE implications for homosexuals who are Christians, but it’s hardly our job to enforce the law even within Christian circles, never mind extending that to non-believers. Accountability IS important, but it’s for those within our faith.
I’ll conclude where I began, treating gay people with compassion and love should supersede the way we feel on the issue. Let’s not be so naive as to think that the discussion that has been going on in these comments would have communicated an attitude of love to gay people reading it, because if that’s supposed to be love, I understand why they don’t feel welcome in our churches.
Interesting, I didn’t expect my post to generate so much by way of disagreement. I guess that’s a good thing.
Rob:
Obviously I can’t comment on the experience you had with the person who punched you. I wasn’t there. But I disagree with you on a few pertainant notes:
We are called to teach nations to obey all that Jesus has commanded us. Living chastely is one of the things that he told us to do. In connection with this he told the woman caught in adultery to stop (John 8).
I should also mention that none of this in any way means that Christ didn’t love this woman. A few days ago someone who I love dearly, who is not a Christian, told me about certian sins in her life which were damaging to her. I told her clearly what God expects. However I’ve known this person for a very long time and can speak in such a way that there is no threat.
Nathan,
No, Jesus didn’t tell her that she was sinning. However he did confront her with her obvious sin, this much is clear. Her reaction to Christ seems to indicate that she was already aware of her sins, no need for prolonged preaching about the 7th commandment. You highlight this well in your comments. But yet Christ does confront sin in those who are stiff-necked, such as this society which sees no need to repent. These are only thoughts, BTW, and aren’t really meant to directly challenge anything you’ve said.
But yet we also must remember that it is sin that has estranged us from God. We need to know that sin is in fact sin. Am I advocating deliberate harshness? No. Confrontation? Yes. Sin is sin. Perhaps God will use this confrontation to inculcate hatred of their own sin.
About the church/state issue, again I disagree. However I don’t really want to get into that right now. This issue is much more important as it effects how I talk to the people I attempt to minister to.
No, unbelievers can’t obey the law. But the law tells them about their need for Christ. I’ll use it in that light.
I have gay friends who I care about. I truly enjoy their company as well. This is only to clarify that I don’t have somekind of deep-seated ill-feeling towards gay people.
Tom Skerritt
Wow, good to see some discussion up here and such a wide variety of views.
Ok first, to Tom, the gospel does NOT include telling people what to do, the gospel is telling them what has been done. Obediance is part of following Christ, i agree completely, but obediance is not part of leading people to Christ nor is it part of the unbeleivers life. By what standards should we tell them to obey by, the bible’s that they don’t beleive in?
Tom said “I have yet to discover anything in the scriptures that inicate that Christians have no shouldn’t remind our society that we have a God who requires things of people and that God will judge the nations and individuals who will not obey.”
i have yet to discover the opposite.
Though, look at the women at the well, did he tell her once that what she was doing was wrong? no. At the most, after her experience he said go and sin no more. Not you have seven husbands and that’s bad, God hates what you are doing but he loves you. Not even close. Instead he looked at her full of compassion not because what she was doing was disobeying God but because what she was doing was destroying the life that she was meant to live.
It’s time that we stop worrying about people disobeying God and thinking that it’s our job to stick up for his laws and what he wants, he’s a big God he can do that himself. Instead, maybe we should start sticking up for people, and helping them live the life that brings them to freedom. If we looked at it that way, i think our approach to the homosexual community would be a lot different. While they will know that we think that what they are doing isn’t natural, they won’t think we are judging them, we simply want them to live a life that a life to the full, and only Christ can bring that, not stopping having sex with a guy.
Tom said. “Let’s not forget that to leave people ignorant of what God hates is hardly loving at all.”
I like this line a lot. Yet i never said that we have to be silent about the issue, in that they don’t know God thinks it’s wrong. However, why are we trying to oppress laws on them that they can’t get married? Seems like were falling prey yet once again to the church state relationships that never worked very well at all from the beginning. Leaving people with laws to follow (that they can’t follow without Christ) doesn’t sound very loving either.
Good comment Rob, i like it a lot, i highly doubt Jesus was sitting around the tax collector table telling them that what they were doing was wrong, or to stop cheating their customers. Instead he probably enjoyed the food, conversation and had coversations about the stock market and the fluctuation of the Canadian dollar.
Mat 9:10 Later, Jesus and his disciples were having dinner at Matthew’s house. Many tax collectors and other sinners were also there.
Mat 9:11 Some Pharisees asked Jesus’ disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and other sinners?”
Mat 9:12 Jesus heard them and answered, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor, but sick people do.
Mat 9:13 Go and learn what the Scriptures mean when they say, ‘Instead of offering sacrifices to me, I want you to be merciful to others.’ I didn’t come to invite good people to be my followers. I came to invite sinners.”
Yet the church continues to believe they need their sin pointed out. They are aware.
Yet the church asks the same questions of Jesus that Pharisees asked.
Yet still the church distances themselves from those in need of a friend.
Many ways of seeing this and other issues the church faces. Hmm.
Tom makes a very strong comment. God will judge us as an individual and by us (the Christian) not saying something goes along way in Gods eyes (dont quote me on what God thinks; just a thought). We are called to make disciples of the entire nation. But my question is this: how? Command people to love God? Convince people that what they are doing is wrong (being gay) and then show them the correct path? HA!
I volunteer at a youth centre in my down town and the people I deal with are very ignorant minded. I had a guy punch me out two weeks ago and did I tell him he was wrong? No. I didnt do anything, I let him hit me. I let him sin all over me and I retaliated with love. His two brothers were present when this all went down and they talked to me after; astonished I didnt fight back. The opportunity was set (thanks God). I then got to tell the brothers why I didnt fight back, why I decided to love instead of hate. A week later the guy that hit me was back in he approached me with a hand shake this time, apology and now my pastor and that guy meet once a week.
Would I have been correct as the Christian to retaliate? I would have been just in my action? I mean he was sinning and its my job to tell him right? Isnt this the same with the Gays? I mean, there sinning and proud of it hell, they have parades informing everyone how awesome it is to be Gay.
Now, I am not speaking on the Lords behalf but wouldnt you think he would rather us love the sinner than to inform the sinner? How can you tell a stranger that they are wrong? I dont think so. Love the sinner, be there friend, actually care about the person and not there sin (which is equal to our own) and then you can really start getting into the gospel.
I think the homosexual topic is great at showing where people are with Christ. I love Gay people. I love talking to them and enjoy being around them. It doesnt mean I approve of there life style nor does God approve of me thinking about the opposite sex like I do. So to sum it up LOVE, and when you run out of it, ask God for some more, he has more than enough to go around (I dont actually know if he does, Im just speculating)
P.S Nathan, hurry up and get home Miss Yah buddy.
Pietism.
The great commission makes it clear that we are to make disiples of nations. Moreover we are to teach them to obey that which Jesus had taught us. Clearly allowing this nation, over which Christ is King, is antithetical to the Gospel which we are called to preach in Church, home and society.
Are there rules? Yes, plenty of them. Obedience is part of the gospel.
Should we allow homosexuals to get married? No. Call me bigoted or full of hate but I have yet to discover anything in the scriptures that inicate that Christians have no shouldn’t remind our society that we have a God who requires things of people and that God will judge the nations and individuals who will not obey. Evil is evil. Let’s not forget that to leave people ignorant of what God hates is hardly loving at all.
Sin is what seperates people from God. Confronting people with their sins is therefore needful if people are to understand their need for Christ. “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life” is not enough. We must begin at the beginning.
But when we point to Christ it is truly good news. In Him people can find completeness. The Heidelberg Catechism puts it this way:
“2. Q. What do you need to know in order to live and die in the joy of this comfort [namely the comfort of knowing you belong to Christ as shown in Q&A 1] ?
A. First, how great my sins and misery are;[1] second, how I am delivered from all my sins and misery;[2] third, how I am to be thankful to God for such deliverance.[3]
[1] Rom. 3:9, 10; I John 1:10. [2] John 17:3; Acts 4:12; 10:43. [3] Matt. 5:16; Rom. 6:13; Eph. 5:8-10; I Pet. 2:9, 10.”
In order to know comfort, you must know 3 things, one of which is your sins. This doesn’t mean that we can scream at people and be distasteful.
I totally agree with Troy that Christians ought to earnestly love gay people. I know someone who lived a fully gay lifestyle but now lives for God. Why? Simply because Christians weren’t afraid to invite him to hang out with them. Through this my friend learned that it is possible to have normal and fulfilling relationships with guys. I talked to him the other day and he told me that he thinks the fact that he was able to see these relationships in action and be part of them was the biggest and most encouraging affirmation he could recieve. Perhaps Christians need to think more along these lines.
See all of that makes sense. But we can’t forget that its the Holy Spirit that will draw their hearts, not how well or how quick we are to tell them they have to repent.
I believe first we must love them, then through that we will share with them CHRIST love, and through that will come the convictions that their lifestyle is wrong, and the holy spirit will draw them, and we pray for opportunities to share with them things about God and the Christian Lifestyle. If I met an alcoholic I wouldn’t walk up and say ‘the bible says that the drunkards will not enter the kingdom of God’. No, but I would rather walk up and say ‘hey how’s it going?’ I’d get to know them, and pray for opportunities to share with them, without it having to be me trying to make an opporunity by randomly preaching at some stranger.